Although invisible to the naked eye, your mental health battles are never to be taken lightly. They will greatly impact how you live your life, how you connect with people around you, and how you shape your future. As a student-athlete, Victoria Garrick Browne fought for better mental health as depression and anxiety plagued her life as a high-functioning perfectionist. In this episode, she joins Jeffrey Saad to look back on how she triumphed over her inner battles and now inspiring women to live their best lives. Reflecting on her experiences, she shares invaluable advice on building a lasting relationship (especially for married folks), the right way to manage your ego, and what to do when things do not really go your way.
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Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
The Amazing Victoria Garrick Browne
I’m happy to have Victoria Garrick Browne here because I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for her. Who says the mentor can’t be half your age? I was on Victoria’s Real Pod, which is one of the amazing things she does. Division 1, semi-pro volleyball, USC. That’s where it all began and then she had this sincere passion, which I’ll let her talk about for truly making women feel good and have their best life in my opinion. Your TEDx Talk went over half a million views at this point or 600,000. How many?
Somewhere there.
Looking Back
It blew up and also your foundation, The Hidden Opponent. I’m going to let you fill in the gaps and bring us up to speed on what you’ve been up to. I’m glad to have her here because, in addition to being wildly successful and truly the real deal amazing human, she happens to be the daughter of my 40-year friend, Lainie and her husband, George, who I adore.
I’ve had the pleasure of knowing her since birth. Talk about how you never know where your life’s going to go, where somebody you met as a baby and you’re like, “Whatever, that’s somebody’s baby.” It ends up potentially changing your life. Fill in the gaps between what I missed, and what I said wrong, and bring us up to speed on what you’ve been up to.
First of all, I’m honored to be here. Anytime I get to talk to you, I truly feel lucky. Whether you even say something inspirational, which happens even when you’re not trying, your energy is infectious. I was excited to come here and I’m honored to be on the show. I’m happy you’re doing it because the world needs Jeffrey Saad’s wisdom. As far as everything you said, yes. It’s always funny when you hear someone list your accomplishments because you get imposter syndrome. Do you know what I mean?
That’s me. I’m sure you can appreciate the philosophy where I say, “That’s a story about my life, but it’s not me in my core.” I always get existential about it. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m a founder, and also a podcaster, and I feel grateful that I didn’t plan on doing this with my life. I majored in Journalism. I thought I’d be a sports reporter.
It was my own life experiences of struggling with my mental health, and with my body image where I got to a place of feeling that nothing felt more important than telling my stories and being authentic about how I felt in my life, and then it was stepping into that, which is owning who I was at the time that opened all these doors for me to be here. I feel fiercely passionate about encouraging other people to be themselves because there’s so much beauty that comes from that.
Say that say that again. Truly to be themselves because you are like the Jacques Cousteau of truth to me. Diving deep. How wrong am I? You can’t stop unless you find the truth. What’s real?
I feel once you live authentically, you don’t ever see why would you want to go back. Sometimes I do ask myself. I’ve gotten to this place where everything I do has a lens of vulnerability. I started to question whether is it even vulnerable anymore. I remember when I first started talking about, for example, my binge eating disorder, I was hesitant about some of those details. It felt too vulnerable.
It didn’t feel too vulnerable to talk about suicidal ideation in my TEDx Talk but it did talk about how much food I was eating in darkness and the secrecy of my room. That felt too far but then long story short, I was talking to a publication and they included that in a piece. It was out there and I remember thinking I’m not even going to repost this. I’m not going to reshare it because I thought, “I can’t believe this is out in the world.”
I’m embarrassed and I feel shame. That’s why we don’t want to be vulnerable. We feel exposed. I got many messages from random people, “I saw this, I followed this magazine, or I saw the video. This is me and this helped me.” It was almost like I got shoved into it and I saw the warmth, the love, and the feeling of being seen that I felt more comfortable going further into it.
Now, it’s like you get desensitized. I meet someone on the street and they have heard me cry on my podcast a couple of times. Other than things that are off limits, I don’t know things in your life that aren’t about you. My thing is me. I will share myself, but I can’t share with everyone. I think there are moments and I do have some mystery in my life.
The beauty is you’re twenty years ahead of me because I was 40 years old. When I was on The Next Food Network Star, it was the biggest epiphany. One of the things they said to me was to stop trying to be perfect. Share yourself. I grew up with this whole, “Work and personal, keep it separate.” It was such a relief to finally say, “No. It’s better.”
As you know better than anybody, people like you better because you’re real and then they feel real, and they don’t feel bad that they’re in their rooms binge eating. Those are still my favorite posts that you’re doing. “Look at this,” and the skirt’s launched over, then you go this, and you look as hot as anybody online.
It shows that anyone can take a good picture and make it seem like they have no imperfections when someone else is in their home, but 90% of the time, I feel like I’m imperfect and so is everyone else. Also, to what you said about being yourself on The Next Food Network Star, I think anything we do in life even if we work a corporate job and even when you think about real estate, when you bring what makes you special to what you do, that always enhances it. I think we are in a place in life where we’re seeing everyone across the board. It’s powerful to have a brand, a personality, or something that is a signature to you.
When you bring what makes you special to what you do, it always enhances your life. Share on XOne of my favorite things that I read somewhere but I can’t remember where is, “Who would you be if you weren’t who you thought you were?” Everybody has this idea of “This is who I am,” but who would you be if you didn’t think that’s who you were that you’re trying to portray?
When I first got back into real estate from cooking, Nadia, my amazing and beautiful wife, said, “Don’t talk about food. They’re going to think you’re not a good realtor if you’re a chef. I couldn’t help it. I’d be showing off, “You’re making osso buco tonight? You want to sear that. Dust it with flour. Get it gold.” I got an even better reaction because I wasn’t trying to sell anything. I was talking about what I love.
Saving Lives
When you started that though, because you know you saved lives. I do not doubt that you have saved lives. You’ve allowed a million people, not just women, I’m sure people like me to be better for themselves. Was that your initial goal? Was it like, “I need to talk about this. I’m going to talk about it?” Was it like, “I want to help people and I think this is how I can do it.” How did that evolve?
I feel like the very first time I spoke out, it’s funny because usually when people are talking about the first time they made a change in their life it’s like I sent this email. It’s a small build over time but for me, it was like I stood on a stage to 100 people and I spoke. The first time I spoke out, I literally spoke out. I remember too, my mom who you mentioned, at the time even asking, “Are you sure you want to say all of this?” She then said, “Future employers will see this.” I wasn’t even upset because she had my best interest at heart. She could be like Kris Jenner if she wanted to. She’s smart, even by speaking, she’ll say, “No. You got to say it this way.” She gets it.
She has very high emotional intelligence.
Her emotional intelligence is insane. I remember thinking, “This is my story. If I’m going to say something, I’m not going to say half of it or 80%. I’m going to say it 100%.” I give the story of my mom because that was a big moment for me. I remember thinking, “My god. People from my hometown and high school are going to say, Wait. Victoria Garrick is depressed? No. That’s not the girl we know.”
I remember thinking that I was putting myself out there. To your question, the reason was because I felt blindsided by what I experienced. If you make it on a top team and you are winning every game, you’re playing a national leader of the year, and you guys are number 1 in the country. This is your dream and you’ll never be sad.
Here I was in the most miserable place I’ve ever been because the stakes were high and I felt so much pressure. A lot of it, especially looking back now, I wasn’t able to handle it. I did not have the tools. I didn’t have the preparation. I wish I could pause my current life, and do four more years of D1 knowing what I know now. See if I could handle it better, I could control my inner dialogue, not have as much performance anxiety, and I didn’t have the tools.
It’s not like this person hurt me and these people were toxic. Of course, there’s that in every situation in life but I was a high-functioning perfectionist, anxiety waiting to seep out my entire life, and this was the perfect storm. When that happened to me, I thought, “This would never be me. I would never be depressed.”
I turned my ears off when they talked about mental health in high school. I thought it wouldn’t be me. I work too hard. I have friends. I had the stigma, which the stigma can be real that also keeps people from even seeking help. Fortunately, once I’ve started going to therapy and talking about how “This is hard.” I need tools to work on how to make it through and survive in this environment.
I remember one of my therapy sessions at the very beginning, the therapist saying in one of my first sessions ever, “Why do you have to be the best of everything?” I replied, “What do you what do you mean?” Let’s go back. That was the first time that I pondered, “Wait. Why do I always feel that I have to nail it or something terrible is going to happen?”
I think once I feel empowered, I’m no longer blaming myself. I couldn’t handle the stakes. Something is wrong with me and I was looking at it like, if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone. Speaking out about it, I had no foresight that I was going to be a public speaker and I was going to start a podcast. I am a strategic person. The brand I built, I’m not going to sit here and say, “That all happened overnight.” I strategically built my brand.
The foundation is organic. You start speaking at colleges, “Why you were still going to school. It’s so cool.”
It started with just, “I simply have to give this TEDx Talk.” It is because I want another athlete who’s crying in bed at night feeling this way to see it and then feel less alone because there were not many videos I could find in 2016.
That’s the irony. What you said earlier is one of my passions. You said, “I wish I could go back.” I’m glad you couldn’t go back because as a chef, you can’t take out one ingredient and have the same dish. If you hadn’t gone through exactly that, you wouldn’t be who you are today. You would not have evolved into who you are today. You would not have saved many people. You would not inspire many people. You would not have made the massive changes that you’re going to make in the future. Sorry, it had to be for your suffering but it’s our benefit when you suffer.
I don’t have regrets. I wouldn’t go back and change it. I wish I could. I said that I paused life to see if I could. It doesn’t count for anything. To your point, I was thinking about that today. Something’s going on right now in my life that’s a difficult situation but because of an even worse situation a few years ago, I feel like I’m prepared for this one. It makes you think that some of the toughest things that happened to you in life make you who you are in this moment. It is wild to think, “Would I make it different in the past, but then I don’t know who I’d be right now.
We are all who we are. The thing I adore about my wife is when she says, “I wish that was different from my childhood, that was different.” I say, “I don’t because I love every bit of you for exactly who you are and we don’t know that if that thing got pulled out you’d still be you.” That’s what’s cool. To me, I’m not saying you’re saying that, but it’s never about, “I need to go back and fix it.” It’s about how am I evolving. That whole art of kaizen is 1% better every day. I keep learning and evolving. It’s not what went wrong or what didn’t happen, but it’s how am I evolving now that I’ve learned more and know better.
One of my favorite Eckhart Tolle quotes that I always think about with this is something like, “How do you know this is the experience you’re supposed to be having because it’s the one you are in at this moment?” I think about that all the time, even when things are tough, I said that this is an opportunity to hold two truths at once. This is an opportunity to handle the situation differently than I would in the past. This is an opportunity to become stronger in this. Of course, I’m not a toxic positive person, I cried yesterday, but it is pushing me.
That’s its superpower, by the way. I’m good. I can cry. It’s a tool. If you don’t use those tools, you suffer.
You have to let it out. They say that the body keeps the score. I was in the car with my husband, Max, and I started crying about something else. I’m sure you know when your wife starts crying about something specific and then says, “Do you know? I do everything for everyone.” You’re in trouble. This is taking a turn. I’m always thinking about it.
Max is the martial artist master of like, “I’m going to let this go in and I’m going to process. I’m not going to react.”
I was thinking I haven’t had a good cry. When you are married, you’re with your partner all the time. It’s not like you live alone and you have those nights where you sob and you go to get it out. We’re in the car and I can tell that he’s trying to think about what to say and I said, “You don’t have to say anything. I could be alone right now. I need to let all this out and let my ego take over and vent.”
He’s like, “Okay. I’m Just kidding. I’m going to turn.” My goal with this show is I am passionate about I love people. Speaking of crying, Isabella and I were walking on the beach. My daughter’s in town. You saw Bella. It was 07:00 in the morning. She said, “Dad, let’s go to a beach to walk and dive in the ocean.” I said, “Yes.” We went to watch the sunrise as I drove to the ocean.
As we’re walking back, I see this guy, he had to be 65, probably bawling on the beach with his hands in his face. I went up to him and I started crying. I said, “It’s all going to be okay. This is a moment in time. It’s going to get better.” He looked at me with this big smile, “How do you know, but I’ll take it.” Isabelle said, “I can’t believe you started crying.”
Circle Of Control
I had such deep empathy for him. I see this guy at the beach and he lost somebody, something, or whatever it was. Maybe he’s never got to learn what you’ve taught us all and he doesn’t know how to deal with what he’s dealing with. I instantly connected with the stranger, but then I wanted to help him. My passion for this show, The Circle of Control, is stoic philosophy.
Here’s the circle. It’s my tattoo. Whatever is outside your circle that you can’t affect. I feel that everybody suffers the weight of that stuff. The irony is your circle will expand if you can focus more on what’s inside. You can make a difference and your circle will grow if you let go of what you can’t fix. I suffer with people when I see them very focused on all these things that they can’t change or that they’re not willing to change I should say.
You even asked me on your podcast, which I loved because it was an important clarifying point. This doesn’t mean to say, “War? Not in my backyard. Who cares?” “I’m good. I got steak tonight.” No. It’s not to ignore things that don’t affect you personally, but if I’m not going to go raise money for Ukraine I’m not going to go to the Middle East. You have to decide where you’re going to put your attention because you’ll be good at that then.
What you’ve done, where you put your attention, your circle keeps growing because you’re you’re in it but because you’re who you are, I’m excited for people to hear about your take on the circle and how you deal with it. I feel your circle is a heartbeat as it expands and attracts as you keep spiraling upward in your success. What is your take on that? What’s maybe a recent example of something that’s bouncing in and out of your circle that you want to deal with?
I love everything you said and it’s important. I think a guiding phrase that’s been helping me with what’s my circle of control and what’s not is that I have three options in every situation in life that I don’t like. We’re only talking about things we don’t like. It’s a good thing no one cares where it’s going to be awful. It’s yours. It’s mine. Who cares? These are the things that don’t go our way. You can change it, you can leave it, or you can accept it. You can’t do anything else. If I can’t change the moment, then I can leave it or I can accept the moment. I feel that acceptance is the hard one because it’s easy to run your mouth and say this or whatever but accepting is also hard. I feel that is a lesson in the past.
If I cannot change the moment, I can leave it or accept it for what it was. Share on XMost people leave because they can’t handle acceptance, they’d rather bail.
Accepting something that is not how you’d hoped or what you’d wanted is difficult. I had to learn that throughout the past few years with relationships, getting older, and seeing that people have different values. They viewed a different way. I’ll give you a small example, but it’s right on the nose. My husband, Max, switched from real estate to broadcasting. He’s a broadcaster. Catch him with CW. I texted my mom and said, “I want to have a party for Max. A dinner with the family like a send-off.” She said, “My god. That sounds great. Should we invite his friend? Should we make it a surprise? Should we do it then?” I’m thinking, “I just alerted you. I, his wife, will arrange a small casual get-together.”
it was this interaction where I thought, “Okay.” For my mom, what she views as special and good enough in this celebratory situation is wildly different than how Max and I view what needs to happen for this dinner. That will maybe forever be different. Maybe she will forever think it wasn’t as big of a party as it should have been or it wasn’t enough. I will think, “It was because it’s about X, Y, Z.”
There are situations in life where it nets out differently for people. I’m no more right than she is right or wrong. I’m not like, “She needs to believe what I believe.” That’s been a big unlock for me in my life. I need to accept the differences that people have with everything, relationships, how you show up for people, what’s important, what needs to be talked about, and what can be sucked into the rug. It’s going to be different. It’s what you can tolerate, but also need to accept.
This sounds like an example of a little bit of change and acceptance. You were telling your mom, “This is the way I want to do it.” You’re going to change it, but you also accepted it as you said.
She might come show up and think that it’s not good enough and I have to accept that. Everything went fine. We had a great dinner.
Do you know why? It’s because you approach it that way. This is at the core of what I want to help people with because it could have turned into a bitter relationship between you and your mom, and you hear those stories all the time all over a silly dinner. It is because people don’t address it and instead they choose to fight it or judge, “I can’t believe you would treat it this way. Who do you think you are? We’re not even having you at the dinner.” Really?
They take it personally. That’s something else too I’ve been trying to think about a lot not taking it personally. One of the four agreements. It’s not personal. I love so much the quotes that you’ve shared with me and all your inspirational notes that you keep are about the things you need to do before reacting, and one of them is to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. It’s just putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, not just, “I can see,” then blah blah blah. Close your eyes and think if I was this person. That’s why. I had a situation recently where I felt let down by a friend, and of course, I was upset. I still have a little bit of my ego that wants to be, “I can’t believe that happened.”
I’m honest about that too because it does keep bubbling up the sides. It’s not like, “Do these three steps. You’re done.” No. It’s going to be an endless journey of bubbling and purging.
Until you fully dilute and out the colored water. I have been like, “This person, this is her upbringing.” It affects me because it hurt my feelings that I didn’t get what I wanted in the situation but that’s not because she said, “I want to spite Vic.” Not at all. If I know that, I’m giving my ego time to cool off because I know my higher self doesn’t want to make my ego a reality.
Feelings
In those notes, it’s what I read one time which I love, the Wright brothers, that was their policy. Whenever they disagreed, they had to swap sides. With politics especially in everything, more than ever. I was as bad as disowning my family over politics years ago. Now, I’ve gotten to the place where when the other side has an announcement that’s good for them, I purposely call and say, “I want to say I love you and check in.”
I’m going deep into it because it’s not accepting. As you said, we have to try and understand it. It doesn’t mean you’re agreeing with it. You’re like, “You’re an idiot because you think differently to me.” It is not a good solution. If we can go past just, “Alright. I’m going to leave you alone. Fine.” If we can even take another step and ask, “Why do you think what you think?” There’s truth in everything. There has to be some nugget in there that why do you think what you think? It’s because people don’t feel heard or they’re hurt. It’s never about what you think it’s about. It’s something underneath.
I think that you can have a cathartic conversation with people in your life. I can think of when you go to someone and say, “I’m hurt because I feel this,” and they say, “I’m glad you said something because it rubbed me the wrong way when you did this a month prior.” You’re seeing a different side to the situation. Also, I think people can get very defensive and have egos. It changes your life when you can look at it differently and accept that maybe you have done something wrong or you need to take accountability. My husband takes accountability for things he should not be accountable for.
“It’s my fault. I am sorry.”
When we first started dating. I said, “This isn’t fun. I wanted to fight.” When you say, “I’m sorry and apologize,” what are we doing? It’s over.
Good for him.
That’s feeding the ego. It’s the toxic desire to fight. We had a situation where we were up an event and he was talking to a girl. That’s totally normal. Talk about gender. I usually do not care for some reason, whether it was the cocktail and I was drinking. They were talking in the kitchen but I don’t know why I was getting jealous. In my mind, I started to get jealous. “Did they hook up in college I don’t know about it.” My mind started to spiral and it was silly.
A past version of me or someone who hasn’t done the work might start giving eyes and being rude at the party and say, “No, I’m fine.” He’ll ask, “What’s wrong and I’ll say, “Nothing.” Start a fight and cause a scene. Now, the whole evening is being ruined for both of us and people are going to be watching us fight. I may be taking away from whatever the party was about. Maybe we’re leaving early to go home. We have a screaming match. Instead, I said, “This is a me-issue. My husband is chatting to a human.”
You’re amazing. Here’s to that. That’s what we all need to be doing.
This is a me-issue. Bringing it up while we’re drinking and it’s nighttime is not the time. No one is dying. Keep it to yourself, and you can bring it up tomorrow or the next day. We have a great night and then the next day or three, I go to him and say, “I want to tell you about something. You did nothing wrong. I want to be close to you and make sure we share our emotions and feelings at all times. I was feeling jealous when I saw you talk to that girl.” I didn’t say, “You were making me feel jealous. You can’t talk to girls because it triggers me.” I said, “I was triggered and it was odd and you’re my best friend. Of course, I’m going to talk about this with you both looking at it from a bird’s eye view,” and that’s that.
That’s huge of you. You are advanced I’ve figured this stuff out now.
Jeff, I’ve done much therapy. I was not born this way. I have cried many tears. I’m still having time.
Do you know what I love about you? The list is very long but you take it, learn, and own it. I don’t mean this to diss anybody who’s in therapy because it’s not my place and everyone’s got their journey. We have friends and they do that, but then it’s rinse and repeat. Nothing changes. You evolve and change, which is brilliant. I love the way you said that too because I talk about my relationship with Nadia.
We’ve been married 28 years. It took 20 years for me to figure out that she needed her alone time. Exactly what you said. Now, instead of me asking, “Why is she ignoring me? This is not fair. I’m sitting here and she’s off playing Candy Crush.” Now, as you said, I ask, “Why am I being whiny? Go read a book. Go find something to do. Why do you need to be pampered? Why do you need attention?” As you said, that’s a “Me” problem.
Do you know what’s funny? In every relationship, I have that in mind. My best friends, Aubrey and Woodwood are that. All of us want to be anxious and securely attached to people. It’s always funny. You never get two together. Maybe it wouldn’t work. Maybe that’s toxic.
That’s the beauty of how we balance each other.
To your point, it is hard. I do think and I’ve seen this in my own life, people have to be ready to hear something. I have had times where I have heard something five times over, but it’s not until a certain person on a certain day that the stars have aligned and I am ready to receive. That goes back to our whole thing about acceptance.
People have to be ready to hear something, especially the hardest truths. Share on XIt might make perfect sense to you. You might think you could see the future and say that this is how it should work. I once had a therapist say to me, “How do you know what’s best for everyone?” I was like, “You’re right.” and that’s hard, but that’s where you get to the acceptance thing. “Can I accept this?” Even with this situation with a friend, I had to ask myself, “What’s my goal of having a conversation about this?” Nothing.
I know when someone shows you who they are, believe them. It might not be that they’re a terrible person that you shouldn’t be friends with. It might mean this is always going to be the little thing that happens in these instances and that’s okay. That’s why this is this type of friend and these are my friends I know who wouldn’t ever do that to me.
I can accept that and that used to be hard for me. I want everyone to be perfect. I want everyone to be the same. I want everyone to be the standard. For me, I’m going to fully accept that, this will always maybe miss the mark a little bit. That’s hard for me but now I’m in a place where I’m glad I can do that because I’m not cutting people out of my life. I never did that, but I didn’t let a lot of people in.
You’re cutting out without knowing it. That’s a great statement. I learned that as I was running restaurants and having hundreds of employees. I love that idea. Don’t hold other people accountable to your standards. In a business, you have to have agreed-upon standards. Fine, but it’s very dangerous.
Also, in addition to what you said, “Let them be who they are. Listen when they tell you who they are.” I’ve also tried to get to a place where I’m going to give them another chance to tell me who they are because maybe they’re having a bad day. Maybe their wife was playing Candy Crush last night and they feel bored. If somebody keeps telling you over and over, then as you say, “That’s who they are.”
The thing about chances. I do love the quote, “When people show you who they are, believe them.” However, I am always a second chance, never a third. That’s where maybe I haven’t grown with a third. Everyone deserves a second chance. A third? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I do believe that. Here’s where you can kick in the enlightenment side of it.
Let’s say it’s that second time. It doesn’t mean I have to say, “Screw that person,” and go talk shit through the whole town. I’m going to block them. It means that it disappointed me, but I’m not going to raise my voice. It’s what it is. That also is how you protect your boundaries. You don’t let people walk all over you and disrespect you, but you do it in that next-level way.
Once again, Eckhart Tolle, who I am obsessed with, one of the examples in his book is when someone is coming to you for money like, “Can I have, $1,000 and I promise I’ll pay you back? Can I have 2,000 and I promise I’ll pay you back?” He has this thing called a high-quality “No.” You could say no. That doesn’t make you not enlightened and accepting of people. It means that you can give a high-quality no that doesn’t have negativity.
I haven’t heard that before and I love that. High-quality no. That is epic.
Which is a no that doesn’t have any spice of resentment or anger. It’s like, “I’m not able to give you any more money.” It’s a high-quality no. We’re allowed to do that.
Relationship Advice
That’s beautiful. High-quality no. That’s well said. I have a question for you. I’m passionate about relationships. I always joke that the most important person and thing in our life is our partner. Yet, like young babies, nobody tells you how to do it. You just wing it. I joke that I wish that when I went to get my marriage license, they would say, “Sit down. There’s an hour. We’re going to do this booklet together. Here’s your package to take home. You’re going to do a quarterly review with each other. Talk about what’s important and what matters.”
I think some of these things slowly simmer. It’s the person who you love the most in the world, that you live with, that you share your life with, not your house, but there’s all this unspoken simmering. From the outside, I think you and Max are the quintessential relationship. I feel you’ve become one, yet you’re still very independent and have your own life. Tell everybody more about all this stuff you’ve been talking about. How is it applied to your relationship? What are your nuggets of like, “You’re getting married soon? This has worked and this hasn’t.”
Thank you so much. It’s such a high compliment. I always want to be cognizant that I guess a part of you will be like, “I don’t ever want to be in that perfect relationship,” but we have a good relationship. We do. Of course, we have disagreements and whatever. I think Max did a good job from the get-go of, “We’re not going to have this nonsense. We’re not going to have passive-aggressive comments and the toxic stuff that maybe I was used to with an ex-boyfriend you saw in the movies.”
I was never too crazy, but an example is if he was hanging out with a bunch of people, I’d ask, “Who’s there? Are girls going to be there?” Maybe I don’t trust him, whatever. We’re not going to do that. If I say that I’m going out with my friends, have a great night, trust me. He was good at that. Another thing he was huge on is, “There will be no happy wife, happy life.” We see this everywhere. There will not be a, “I just bite my tongue to appease my wife.”
I also think it’s a little bit condescending in a weird way in either direction. Come on. Honor what both people want. I think the irony is a lot of people would say that. Maybe they don’t even need it. It’s more of a passive thing.
I think then there can be resentment that builds from the husband. This is gender stereotyping. I’m going to acknowledge that but from what I’ve seen in this type of relationship. I think also the woman doesn’t have to learn how to manage her emotions because she has a partner who avoids the conflict and lets the spiral grow throughout their life.
This is the dynamic and the imbalance. I see it a lot. For example, there will be times when Max will say, “I think you’re in the wrong. I think it would be inappropriate for you to do that.” Maybe someone would say, “I can’t believe you wouldn’t side with me. We’re partners and you need to have my back.” Instead, I say, “I respect this man. He’s very smart and logical. He’s my best friend. He loves me enough to say that.”
I know that if I said, “I appreciate your advice. I disagree and I’m going to do it this way,” we can laugh and watch a movie that night and whatever. It was funny, I had this situation recently where I had this giant splinter in my foot a few days ago. I was scared. It was a giant, not even a splinter, a twig as much as your middle finger to the bottom of your palm in the bottom of my foot.
You should wear shoes. It works in the city.
I know. This was at a lake. Anyways, this was a funny example. We always assess it after, when I was a little scared. We’re either yanking it out and that’s going to hurt or we’re cutting the skin. I was nervous. Max was very assertive with me. He said, “I decided that I’m not yanking it because I think that’s going to cause a ton of pain. It’s the callus skin, I can cut through. It’s not going to hurt that bad.”
I decided that I was going to cut it and I started to cut. I’m chickening out and he said, “Babe, you need to cut. He was pushing me. He wasn’t babying me. I was a little annoyed. He said, “You got to cut it.” He’s being aggressive and we got to solve this. Anyway, that’s what I needed. I did it and the splinter came out.
“Happy wife, happy lifers” would be afraid to tell their wives, “You got to do this.” They’d be like, “Stop yelling at me. I’m in pain and you’re causing stress. Get him out of the room.” It would be scary to encourage their partner to keep going. That’s been a huge thing for us. I’ll say to him, “I think you’re off on this. I think you’re wrong. I feel like everyone is coming down on me and now you are too, and whatever.”
We’ll talk through it and then I will also say, “I never want you to not be able to say things to me.” To be afraid of my emotions about something or my anxiety. I think a lot of other partners’ anxiety can cause another partner to do things to not trigger it, but that’s not your responsibility. They are responsible for their own emotions.
The thing about the candy crush, we are responsible for self-soothing, entertaining ourselves, and being happy. I used to have this thing where Max is a positive person, but I eventually realized that I can’t put this invisible burden on him to dictate my mood. If he doesn’t come home happy, I’m not happy because you’re my happy clown.
You’re too happy and that makes me feel bad about myself.
He needs to have space to have bad days and be anxious. I think also if talking heteronormatively, women do expect men to be stoic. When they come in and they cry or they have their tough moments, it’s like the woman’s dysregulated because that’s my strength. That’s my anger and my consistency. No, that’s human. He’s going to have emotions as you do. I’ve also had to learn how I can self-soothe when Max is not the giver of my happiness on that day.
I love it. That is beautiful. If you’re starting that way, this is the magic. I even love the way you said, “You’re wrong.” It is because when you first said it, I even thought that was pretty direct. Do you know what? That speaks volumes for you guys because most people would end right there, “Don’t say that to me. How can you say I’m wrong?” Maybe there’s a 50-50 in there. You guys can flat-out say that you’re wrong and it’s okay to say that, and then you’re willing to listen. You said they’ll also accept if you decide I’m still doing it.
It’s the, “I think you’re wrong.” Going back to people have different opinions. Even now, I wanted him to get a second opinion on something. He was adamant. He did not need a second opinion. He knows how the cards are going to shake up. I said, “I need you to get it for me. I’m going to pull that card right now. I understand where you’re coming from and I need you to get a second opinion for me. I’m going to play my wife-card there. For me, I need you to do that.” That was when he said, “I’ll go get it.” It’s happening right now. I have to say that about the opinion.
That’s cool too. Do you know what’s beautiful about that? Who doesn’t want to honor that when you always let each other be who you are? That’s the magic of a relationship too. If everything is “For me, do it for me,” all of a sudden this thing, “Please do this for me,” then it has value and it has weight.
It’s a tough line because there will be some people who take advantage of that and they’ll say, “I need you to not play Candy Crush at night because it hurts my feelings.” There are times you need to know when it’s okay and when it’s not. I think there are needs and there are unrealistic expectations. You need to be respected and you need to be loved. It is unrealistic to get flowers every single day. That’s important people but I was going to also add another example.
There was something that Max told me. I did not think it was that big of a secret and I told my mom. When my mom brought it up, Max was upset that I had told my mom. I at first was like, “Why are you upset?” I didn’t even think it was that big of a secret. Certain people tell you and you can say, “Don’t share this.”
At that moment, instead of belittling him and trying to change his opinion, “You’re being sensitive, it’s not that big of a deal.” I said, “Sorry, I genuinely would never try to hurt you. I didn’t know it was that big of a deal. I think I will need next time you to look me in the eye and specify this as a secret because now it’s clear that we view things with different levels of severity.” He said, “Okay.” It’s a loss in this situation because the secret has been told. All we can do is make sure we are one on how we will attack this game plan the next time.
That’s the thing. Nadia and I remember the first three or four years, it was silly I look back that we wouldn’t speak for three days. We’d fight over something dumb. Now, I can’t remember the last time we argued. I can’t even remember it because we have learned to let things go. When there’s something you don’t want to let go, you realize this must be important because she’s not letting it go or whatever and that’s valuable too. Tell me what you think of this. I also think that we all have to understand that nobody gets 100% of what they want. You’re not getting a reasonable twenty or whatever the number is. I think anybody who expects everything in life is not going to get anywhere or I even think a lot of people get divorced, separated, or break up, and all they do is swap the 20 for a different 20.
That’s true. I would say that why Max and I are such a good fit, we are very similar. If we were not together, the way that we approach our careers, the way that we approach our relationships, or the way that we prioritize our people, everything is very similar. To come together, I think when you’re marrying someone, you are joining your lives as one.
When you are marrying someone, you are joining your lives as one. Share on XIf you want to go live in a shack, be on the beach, and not ever have a computer or a corporate job, great but I don’t think you could marry someone who wants to live in the city and crunch numbers every day. You’re going to be giving more than 20. I do think that Max and I were very similar people and they will say opposites attract. I feel my parents are opposites but they’ve been together for 30 years.
They had similar core values for relationships, family, jobs, and lifestyle. You have to come together on those. For anyone who’s in a relationship or a couple, there’s this book called Eight Dates by these two psychologists who work with couples who are married and I love it. Max and I did it and it has chapters on family, finance, the future, intimacy, and trust. It’s called Eight Dates because you go on eight dates of these topics.
It’s nice because if I bring up, “How many vacations do you see us taking a year when we’re in our 30s?” Sometimes it can be awkward or uncomfortable, but when you say we’re going to do this book together then the book prompts you. We did that book and it was great.
I think your Mom probably had to adapt a lot more because of what some amazing woman said this one time, some psychologist or whoever, “You have two choices. You either get married three times or you adapt three times. It is because the party partner in college, you guys are both athletes and at the top of your game, are not necessarily the people that are going to be the ideal parent. Not necessarily the ideal sail-off-to-the-sunset person.
When Max’s labrum got torn, his whole career ended, and he had no resume. That could change someone’s life. That could send them into bad coping habits. That could make someone forever change. We have had big moments where we have been grateful that we’ve handled it in good ways. There are big moments that will come up in life that are not the fun big moments. They are the very sad big moments in life and we will have to handle those together and who knows? As you said, I love that. You do have to adapt. Max loves football and his new job means for fourteen weekends every year until, if things keep going, he will not be home Thursday through Sunday. I will not see him during the Wednesdays, September, October, and November.
That’s love and sacrifice for what you know is his soul.
Would I want him to be a coach? No. That’s where it’s, “No. You’re not going to be a coach in college or the NFL because I don’t want to move.” If you’re a broadcaster and it’s these months are important to you, I can cope and it’s fine. I love my career and I love my friends. I’m seeing the opportunity of how I can help my best friend plan her wedding and I can nurture my friendships.
I love that you say that.
I said, “Can we every Tuesday and work at 04:00? We’re not going to have weekends. We’re not going to have lots of alone time but if I know every Tuesday at 04:00, that will mean much to me to get through this time we will have from the hours of 04:00 until 11:00 that night to get dinner, to watch a movie, and to be together. That’s his compromise. I can end work at 04:00 every Tuesday in the fall.
I love that you’re proactively solving that but I love the way these merge. I could talk to you for hours. I know we have to wrap it up.
I could say them.
What I love is that’s the perfect example of bridging because, in the Eight Dates, you may never get together. If you say, “Would you be okay if you’re never going to have me from Thursday through Sunday? The answer probably would have been a hard no if it was when you were dating but because you love each other, because you’re willing to adapt, you’ve learned to make a nice date out of it, or whatever you want to call it. That’s it’s very cool.
Something that I think halts a lot of us is the prediction of how we would feel. It’s just a prediction.
You change the story the way you’re looking at it.
I probably would’ve been, “I’m going to marry someone and their job will mean that they’re going to be away. I’m not going to be able to handle that.” I would forecast rainy weather. Now that I’ve been in this situation and I’ve seen how hard he’s ground and I believe that he is good at what he does, I am happy for him and now I’m a fierce defender of his schedule.
Closing Words
That’s true love. That is so beautiful. Two things real quick, we got to wrap it up. I want to respect your schedule, but two things. One, I think a lot of people would view you as the triple black belt of emotional stability, learning, and evolving. It’s like, “I can never be like her.” If there’s some challenge you want to share that’s like, “This is the one, I’m not nailing it yet, but I’m working on it.” I then want you to plug quickly The Hidden Opponent because I know how much that means to you and people should know about that.
I’ll start there. The Hidden Opponent is my nonprofit, where we advocate for student-athlete mental health issues. There’s a huge mental health crisis in the world, but as a former student-athlete, zooming in on this community is important to me because that’s the one I was a part of. We provide free resources and education. We signed our global partnership with Adidas.
I don’t know when this is going to come out but keep your eyes peeled for some cool news. We’re stoked at the opportunity we have now to impact more athletes, reach more people, and save more lives. It’s special, talking to the current generation of student-athletes. It’s important to give them a platform. If you go to our Instagram, The Hidden Opponent, you can read their stories. You can see their videos. It’s like their TEDx talk opportunity. You can come here, and share, and the community is willing.
I’m super grateful for everyone who supports that and checks it out. It’s called The Hidden Opponent. Then, to your question on what would I leave people with. If I could list a few of my favorite books, I’d say A New Earth and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. If you’re dealing with doubt and maybe it feels like it’s hard to start with this stuff, Mindset by Carol Dweck was a great one for me with performance anxiety and imposter syndrome.
If I had to give a mini-challenge, I would say, I challenge you to move through your life at a slower pace. That’s been big for me. When you’re having conversations, take ten seconds before you respond. Before your mind starts thinking about what you’re going to say and do, take a breath, look up from the screen, or go get a coffee. I’ve been slowing down. I have a bracelet that says, “Pause.” It helps so much.
Challenge yourself to move through life at a slower pace. When you are having conversations, take ten seconds before you respond. Share on XIt might be in my next tattoo. I like that.
Three matching pauses?
Let’s do it. That is gold. I like that.
Everything is so fast and you feel it in your shoulders. There’s no rush. Especially if you are tuning in to this, chances are you are having an opportunity where you can be five minutes late. You can give yourself five minutes of sleep. You can call them back in a day.
On one of the last posts that I saw you do or the podcast with respecting the people who don’t return texts. I’m jealous of them.
Slowing down and I think making that also physical means taking a deep breath. It means dropping your shoulders, releasing the tension, and even talking slower. That’s something I need to work on.
Episode Wrap-up
That is a beautiful note to leave on, Vic. I cannot wait to see what you’ve accomplished in the next 10 to 20 years. It’s going to be epic.
Thank you. You too. Thank you for having me. I love talking to you and I think this is such a special episode and I’m grateful.
It’s the world. Thank you.
Important Links
- Victoria Garrick Browne – LinkedIn
- Instagram – Victoria Garrick Browne
- Real Pod
- The Hidden Opponent
- Instagram – The Hidden Opponent
- Eight Dates
- New Earth
- The Power of Now
- Mindset